A disciplined person can use their intelligence to root out contradictions and avoid the con, while others will want the comfort of childhood and use their intelligence to fit narratives into a comforting world view they feel happy sacrificing their selves to. https://www.buzzsprout.com/791252/15333887
Awe, thank you. I just could not find anything on the topic that was satisfactory. Some downright annoying, milquetoast and useless. I wrote it just how i have been explaining it to my kids. I welcome your input.
I am angry with richard grove and others who limit the trivium to just those 3 things grammar logic and rhetoric. it is an almost useless description. words divide reality along its joints, yes. copying by hand or reading aloud the whole dictionary, was commonly done in schools in the USA, before the prussian model. Rooting out Mental contradictions - that live in your own mind, is where “question everything” and (know thyself) as above the temple of Apollo, Must start within, as human understanding of the world must be coherent and match up with the facts found in reality. this part was cut out entirely. so when history does not make sense, it will not bother you, because you do not make sense within yourself. confusion , chaos, become the norm.
some religions encourage fuzzy thinking, obscure more than they reveal. . place my article against and of abrahamic believer on the subject, there will be a stark contrast. I have articles about why this is.
In my experience the interesting thing about Christianity is that it tries to explain and elucidate on every angle and question, or almost every in contrast to others.
It's main symbol is a man being tortured to death on a cross, which is fear based programming. it is designed to replace your thought. Unsuitable for free agents. (indigenous people must die who cannot turn of their minds enough )Just wait for daddy to save you and prey. all you have to do to escape hellfire is believe, and judge not...
Remember though about this symbol: the purported messiah existed prior to his mortal birth & death and didn’t remain on the cross. He had his cross and his followers (and obviously not all are followers) are told to daily take up our crosses.
From a book from a cult that (initially) broke away from the Abrahamic religions later to try to join them: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.”
I love words and the meanings of words and if the words have deeper meanings. The word “temperance” can be translated from the Greek word “ἐγκράτεια, (egkrateia)”, and alternatively translated as “self-mastery, self-restraint, self-control, continence.“
What is “the self” that needs to be mastered or controlled or restrained? Is it mastered etc by a separate aspect of the self or by tapping into a power higher than the self? What if the self is “consciousness”? Is there a power higher than consciousness?
the principle of uniqueness dictates that everyone will have different consciousness according to their abilities, according t their labors in refining it through such practice as meditation. so, you will have to look into yours to answer that. only you can answer for you. do you have such things as awareness, memory, imagination, reflection, a conscience? i cannot say.
Even consciousness — which I suppose encapsulates awareness, memory, imagination, intelligence, creativity, conscientiousness, self-reflection — (as I mentioned before on another thread) contributes to clinging & craving, which is at the root/core of unease, suffering, pain, lack of joy, unsatisfactory-ness. Therefore, I cannot rely on the conscious self to relieve this unease etc. The path of peace — which probably requires meditation or prayer — must be something else other than “Know Thyself” or attempting to become fully conscious. This is me embracing my uniqueness, I suppose.
i find that knowing myself, is a matter of rooting out contradictions, often installed beliefs from childhood that are inconsistent with my real values- and, we are Not a blank slate- at least i had values from the very first. once the inner cognitive dissonance is rooted out, one does not get triggered much and cam think clearly. do i guess it had interpreted “know thyself” as making distinctions from my authentic self and values, as opposed to , the deranged values imposed by “culture”. Culture is not your friend.
I agree that culture is not one’s friend. To be enculturated (is that even a word?) is to become domesticated. I prefer to be wild. 😝
ArtemisForestFairy, I suppose that I’m simply hung up on the entire concept of the “self” and everything associated with the “self” and all of the synonymous words that define or describe the “self”, e.g. consciousness. Yes, I very very much like what you have to say about rooting out one’s inner cognitive dissonance and how it’s done and what’s become of you once this rooting out has occurred. I’d have to ask someone “Now that you’ve achieved this, what are you now?” I’m still left with the (wise?) proverb “For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.” It’s possible that I’m driving myself crazy — a very short distance, to be sure — over this concept of nothing/nothingness.
Wise?! that takes experience. clear minded, maybe, you know who you are, and what you aim to do. Unflappable. not a servant unable to lead. sovereign self mastery with full agency of actions. integrated shadow, not addicted to bs. not easy to manipulate.
I suppose that to be “wise” — unflappable, not obsequious, temperate, courageous, prudent, just — requires constant integrity and constant vigilance against all manner of deception. When I know the right or correct thing to do and fail to do it — and conversely, I know the wrong thing to do and I do it anyway — this is a form of self deception. It’s the opposite of “wise” or intelligent. I guess that each of us still fail in this regard. (Maybe there really are those who have grown up to be 100% successful in not failing.) Ergo, wisdom might be a goal one is still striving for. (Maybe some have achieved this goal.) Considering the billions of humans currently inhabiting the earth and the relatively small number of people an individual can count as true friends, who among us can authentically be considered (whole-heartedly) wise and innocent and understanding and empathetic and merciful and compassionate and peace-loving and without hypocrisy? Everyone should have a person like this in his or her life. Maybe it’s even more important to BE this person. 😊
Classical civilization simply strikes me as a supremely weird creature, Art.
The same people who wrote about virtues loved wrestling, believed supremely dark stuff about death, and railroaded Socrates.
Moving to Rome, these folks never practiced a virtue in a practical sense-ever.
Part of us really resonates with the idea of a virtue, and they can somewhat work on a personal level, but like all moral systems they presume a world and a society that doesn't exist.
Perhaps what virtues really do best is illustrate the range of choices available to respond to life, and for that, they are virtuous.
I might agree with you except for Markus Araleus. He seems to have live a virtuous life, is spite of being emperor of Rome. there is literally no evidence to the contrary. however most people find the ideas of virtue inaccessible in this form. few people will resonate with it, as i said it was a transitional period, by design between polytheism, which IS accessible, and monotheism, which is a big and endless set of problem it cannot solve. Not without 500 different branches of it.
I get what you,re saying, but everybody overlooks one thing, and that was the simple fact that Rome was a slave empire. I dunno, Art, but as a white guy I had every motherfucking teacher drill into my head that slavery is not virtuous.
Now, are the teachers wrong?
I'm prepared to face that possibility, but within the current framework we wind up back in that same morality trap of western civilization that nobody wants to see, and it is that trap that makes the virtues a relative phenomenon, not a universal one.
think about this. Some people Want to be told what to do, what to think. Now, why oh why might this be? maybe Not all slavery is bad. you For covid, saw all those order following sycophants. what are they perfect for? they would choose to be servants. they know they are not cut of the leadership cloth. thinking is too hard. slavery is bad. thralldom, is more optional.
Yet what this destroys is any appearance of a moral position. If some people are born slaves, then no egalitarian morality is applicable to their true condition, and it becomes an artificial requirement, even a burden to demand they become what they were never born to be, and thus something anti-life.
So to force those born to slavery to uphold democracy through individual thought and activity is actually quite stupid, because its like demanding a donkey to be a horse. And if we then understand that, then modern morality is simply a huge hammer to pound everyone into a single shape, which society itself has proven to be unworkable.
I was pointed to this discussion from another by Art.
> If some people are born slaves,
This has actually been an important topic back in Classical Era. Aristotle formulated the idea of "natural slaves", human-like creatures that are as different from man as man is from beasts. The other slaves were "legal slaves", people who ought to be free but were enslaved for various reasons. AFAIK, Aristotle believed there were no natural slaves known to Greeks at the time, and all slaves they had were legal ones.
However, AI opens new frontiers in this domain.
In addition, I'd argue it's nonsensical to judge people of the past by modern standards of virtue, since in the modern cultures influenced by Christianity, there are 7 base virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, faith, hope, love) whereas back in Classical Era there were only 4 base virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance). Since slavery is/was practiced by all societies, we can conclude the 4 base virtues of pagans, which can be derived from Nature, do not forbid slavery. AFAIK, slavery is forbidden by love, a theological virtue that Christians say can only be known through divine revelation (that they say was given to them and not to others). Love requires people to will the good of another, purely for the sake of another. And you can see how this forbids slavery. If you do not consider love a virtue, you ultimately won't see anything particularly wrong with slavery.
I never said they were born that way, and i never used the word forced. this is counter productive. When i last checked joining the military, was voluntary. Once you do this, for a set time , They own you and can spend your life at the will. Joining the Clergy. Servitude. Can be a logical choice. it can be temporary. Some rise up in the ranks, others just are retarded in some way and need someone to look after them. In ancient Ireland and In ancient Greece, a slave earned money. They could buy their own freedom. Some Charioteers was so successful, they Not only bought their freedom, they acquired other slaves. Not all slaver is how it was portrayed in Hollywood. The Muslim slave trade was far more brutal than Common thralldom generally. Slavery exists right now all round us it just got a rebrand. A lot of people work for the banks.
A disciplined person can use their intelligence to root out contradictions and avoid the con, while others will want the comfort of childhood and use their intelligence to fit narratives into a comforting world view they feel happy sacrificing their selves to. https://www.buzzsprout.com/791252/15333887
This essay makes me want to revisit my own essays on this topic and write some more on virtue and chivalry, bravo!
Awe, thank you. I just could not find anything on the topic that was satisfactory. Some downright annoying, milquetoast and useless. I wrote it just how i have been explaining it to my kids. I welcome your input.
I am angry with richard grove and others who limit the trivium to just those 3 things grammar logic and rhetoric. it is an almost useless description. words divide reality along its joints, yes. copying by hand or reading aloud the whole dictionary, was commonly done in schools in the USA, before the prussian model. Rooting out Mental contradictions - that live in your own mind, is where “question everything” and (know thyself) as above the temple of Apollo, Must start within, as human understanding of the world must be coherent and match up with the facts found in reality. this part was cut out entirely. so when history does not make sense, it will not bother you, because you do not make sense within yourself. confusion , chaos, become the norm.
Haha, my last essay on the virtues was months ago, I’d have to dig them up.
But yours is much better, and I think that such topics should be discussed firmly and with nary any doubt as you said.
some religions encourage fuzzy thinking, obscure more than they reveal. . place my article against and of abrahamic believer on the subject, there will be a stark contrast. I have articles about why this is.
In my experience the interesting thing about Christianity is that it tries to explain and elucidate on every angle and question, or almost every in contrast to others.
It's main symbol is a man being tortured to death on a cross, which is fear based programming. it is designed to replace your thought. Unsuitable for free agents. (indigenous people must die who cannot turn of their minds enough )Just wait for daddy to save you and prey. all you have to do to escape hellfire is believe, and judge not...
Remember though about this symbol: the purported messiah existed prior to his mortal birth & death and didn’t remain on the cross. He had his cross and his followers (and obviously not all are followers) are told to daily take up our crosses.
From a book from a cult that (initially) broke away from the Abrahamic religions later to try to join them: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.”
if you do, please, let me know!
I love words and the meanings of words and if the words have deeper meanings. The word “temperance” can be translated from the Greek word “ἐγκράτεια, (egkrateia)”, and alternatively translated as “self-mastery, self-restraint, self-control, continence.“
What is “the self” that needs to be mastered or controlled or restrained? Is it mastered etc by a separate aspect of the self or by tapping into a power higher than the self? What if the self is “consciousness”? Is there a power higher than consciousness?
the principle of uniqueness dictates that everyone will have different consciousness according to their abilities, according t their labors in refining it through such practice as meditation. so, you will have to look into yours to answer that. only you can answer for you. do you have such things as awareness, memory, imagination, reflection, a conscience? i cannot say.
Even consciousness — which I suppose encapsulates awareness, memory, imagination, intelligence, creativity, conscientiousness, self-reflection — (as I mentioned before on another thread) contributes to clinging & craving, which is at the root/core of unease, suffering, pain, lack of joy, unsatisfactory-ness. Therefore, I cannot rely on the conscious self to relieve this unease etc. The path of peace — which probably requires meditation or prayer — must be something else other than “Know Thyself” or attempting to become fully conscious. This is me embracing my uniqueness, I suppose.
i find that knowing myself, is a matter of rooting out contradictions, often installed beliefs from childhood that are inconsistent with my real values- and, we are Not a blank slate- at least i had values from the very first. once the inner cognitive dissonance is rooted out, one does not get triggered much and cam think clearly. do i guess it had interpreted “know thyself” as making distinctions from my authentic self and values, as opposed to , the deranged values imposed by “culture”. Culture is not your friend.
I agree that culture is not one’s friend. To be enculturated (is that even a word?) is to become domesticated. I prefer to be wild. 😝
ArtemisForestFairy, I suppose that I’m simply hung up on the entire concept of the “self” and everything associated with the “self” and all of the synonymous words that define or describe the “self”, e.g. consciousness. Yes, I very very much like what you have to say about rooting out one’s inner cognitive dissonance and how it’s done and what’s become of you once this rooting out has occurred. I’d have to ask someone “Now that you’ve achieved this, what are you now?” I’m still left with the (wise?) proverb “For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.” It’s possible that I’m driving myself crazy — a very short distance, to be sure — over this concept of nothing/nothingness.
Wise?! that takes experience. clear minded, maybe, you know who you are, and what you aim to do. Unflappable. not a servant unable to lead. sovereign self mastery with full agency of actions. integrated shadow, not addicted to bs. not easy to manipulate.
I suppose that to be “wise” — unflappable, not obsequious, temperate, courageous, prudent, just — requires constant integrity and constant vigilance against all manner of deception. When I know the right or correct thing to do and fail to do it — and conversely, I know the wrong thing to do and I do it anyway — this is a form of self deception. It’s the opposite of “wise” or intelligent. I guess that each of us still fail in this regard. (Maybe there really are those who have grown up to be 100% successful in not failing.) Ergo, wisdom might be a goal one is still striving for. (Maybe some have achieved this goal.) Considering the billions of humans currently inhabiting the earth and the relatively small number of people an individual can count as true friends, who among us can authentically be considered (whole-heartedly) wise and innocent and understanding and empathetic and merciful and compassionate and peace-loving and without hypocrisy? Everyone should have a person like this in his or her life. Maybe it’s even more important to BE this person. 😊
undomesticated. untamed. me too.
Classical civilization simply strikes me as a supremely weird creature, Art.
The same people who wrote about virtues loved wrestling, believed supremely dark stuff about death, and railroaded Socrates.
Moving to Rome, these folks never practiced a virtue in a practical sense-ever.
Part of us really resonates with the idea of a virtue, and they can somewhat work on a personal level, but like all moral systems they presume a world and a society that doesn't exist.
Perhaps what virtues really do best is illustrate the range of choices available to respond to life, and for that, they are virtuous.
I might agree with you except for Markus Araleus. He seems to have live a virtuous life, is spite of being emperor of Rome. there is literally no evidence to the contrary. however most people find the ideas of virtue inaccessible in this form. few people will resonate with it, as i said it was a transitional period, by design between polytheism, which IS accessible, and monotheism, which is a big and endless set of problem it cannot solve. Not without 500 different branches of it.
I get what you,re saying, but everybody overlooks one thing, and that was the simple fact that Rome was a slave empire. I dunno, Art, but as a white guy I had every motherfucking teacher drill into my head that slavery is not virtuous.
Now, are the teachers wrong?
I'm prepared to face that possibility, but within the current framework we wind up back in that same morality trap of western civilization that nobody wants to see, and it is that trap that makes the virtues a relative phenomenon, not a universal one.
think about this. Some people Want to be told what to do, what to think. Now, why oh why might this be? maybe Not all slavery is bad. you For covid, saw all those order following sycophants. what are they perfect for? they would choose to be servants. they know they are not cut of the leadership cloth. thinking is too hard. slavery is bad. thralldom, is more optional.
Yet what this destroys is any appearance of a moral position. If some people are born slaves, then no egalitarian morality is applicable to their true condition, and it becomes an artificial requirement, even a burden to demand they become what they were never born to be, and thus something anti-life.
So to force those born to slavery to uphold democracy through individual thought and activity is actually quite stupid, because its like demanding a donkey to be a horse. And if we then understand that, then modern morality is simply a huge hammer to pound everyone into a single shape, which society itself has proven to be unworkable.
I was pointed to this discussion from another by Art.
> If some people are born slaves,
This has actually been an important topic back in Classical Era. Aristotle formulated the idea of "natural slaves", human-like creatures that are as different from man as man is from beasts. The other slaves were "legal slaves", people who ought to be free but were enslaved for various reasons. AFAIK, Aristotle believed there were no natural slaves known to Greeks at the time, and all slaves they had were legal ones.
However, AI opens new frontiers in this domain.
In addition, I'd argue it's nonsensical to judge people of the past by modern standards of virtue, since in the modern cultures influenced by Christianity, there are 7 base virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, faith, hope, love) whereas back in Classical Era there were only 4 base virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance). Since slavery is/was practiced by all societies, we can conclude the 4 base virtues of pagans, which can be derived from Nature, do not forbid slavery. AFAIK, slavery is forbidden by love, a theological virtue that Christians say can only be known through divine revelation (that they say was given to them and not to others). Love requires people to will the good of another, purely for the sake of another. And you can see how this forbids slavery. If you do not consider love a virtue, you ultimately won't see anything particularly wrong with slavery.
so in Christianity if they are believers that makes them a good person?
https://www.buzzsprout.com/791252/15333887
I never said they were born that way, and i never used the word forced. this is counter productive. When i last checked joining the military, was voluntary. Once you do this, for a set time , They own you and can spend your life at the will. Joining the Clergy. Servitude. Can be a logical choice. it can be temporary. Some rise up in the ranks, others just are retarded in some way and need someone to look after them. In ancient Ireland and In ancient Greece, a slave earned money. They could buy their own freedom. Some Charioteers was so successful, they Not only bought their freedom, they acquired other slaves. Not all slaver is how it was portrayed in Hollywood. The Muslim slave trade was far more brutal than Common thralldom generally. Slavery exists right now all round us it just got a rebrand. A lot of people work for the banks.
Is there something un-virtuous about wrestling?
no, i mean the kind that is for show, as in a kind of theater. i do not know sports so i forget what kind it is.
So, what is all that virtuous about wrestling?
It strengthens the body and mind through the discipline required to practice it.
indeed, physical discipline strengthens mental function.
Wrestling also breaks down the body, and the way the Greeks did it, involved castration.
Really? I wasn’t aware that competitive Greco-Roman wrestling involved castration. How emasculating!!